Wart remedies and snake oil

[unixronin]

Wen the Eternally Surprised has a major outbreak of highly persistent warts on her fingers.  We've tried all the over-the-counter remedies, and they've been frozen twice with liquid nitrogen to no avail.  As a last possible resort while we wait for the dermatologist appointment (the dermatologists are booked up four months ahead), the pediatrician suggested we try something called "thuja", a tree extract.

Well, I finally found the stuff today, at the health food store.  It turns out to be packaged as a homeopathic remedy, in half-ounce vials at either 12C or 30C "strength" (read: dilution).  This is probably a good thing, as it is generally stated that the primary active ingredient in "oil of thuja" is thujone.

Now, let's stop here a moment and do some simple math.  The molecular formula for thujone is C₁₀H₁₆O, and its molecular weight is 152.23.  Let's assume, just for the moment, that oil of thuja were actually pure thujone.  (It isn't, but the assumption gives us some actual numbers to work with instead of ballpark guesses.)  Using our old friend Avogadro's number (6.023x10²³), we can calculate that a half-ounce vial — call it 14 grams — of thujone contains about 5.5x10²² thujone molecules ... before dilution.  But remember those cryptic strength ratings?

Well, it turns out that 1C means a 100:1 dilution.  And it's geometric.  2C is 10000:1; 3C is 1000000:1.  Doing the math, 12C "strength" is a dilution of 10²⁴:1.

But wait!  We only started out with 5.5x10²² thujone molecules in the first place.  That means that, statistically speaking, there is a chance fractionally better than 1 in 18 that any given 14-gram vial of 12C oil of thuja extract contains a single molecule of thujone.

But wait!  It gets better!  There's a 30C strength!  At 100:1 dilution each time, that is an additional 10³⁶:1 dilution.  That means there's roughly one thujone molecule for every 5.5x10³⁷ 14g vials of the 30C extract.  That's such a huge number that not only are there not enough 14g vials on the entire planet for any one of them to have a statistically significant probability of containing a single thujone molecule, but I think I can say with good confidence that there is not anywhere on the planet a 14g vial of 30C homeopathic thujone extract that contains a single molecule of alcohol (thujone is soluble in alcohol, but not in water) that has ever been in the same container of any size with even a single molecule of thujone.

So the 30C, and even the 12C, thujone preparations are pure alcohol with a slight chance, at the 12C dilution, of being contaminated by a thujone molecule.  But then even that is processed and made into pellets.  Well, you can't make alcohol into a pellet; it's a volatile liquid.  I'd wager those pellets don't even contain any more than residual traces of the alcohol solvent — I'd bet they're composed entirely of binders and other non-active ingredients with possible trace impurities left behind by the alcohol.

The essence of snake oil, huh?  So why do I say this is probably a good thing?

Well, you see, thujone is reported to be "toxic to both brain and liver cells", and is widely classified as a neurotoxin.  So aren't you glad that when you buy the stuff for your health, you aren't actually getting any of it?

Comments

[dartpoly.livejournal.com]

Point 1: isn't thujone the psychoactive component of absinthe?

Point 2: "toxic to brain and liver"... at that high a concentration of alcohol -- maybe it wasn't the thujone?

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Point 1: isn't thujone the psychoactive component of absinthe?

So it was believed for a considerable period. In fact, more recent analyses have shown that the amount of thujone present in absinthe were much lower than previously thought (by as much as two orders of magnitude), and it was in fact probably not present in high enough concentrations to be either significantly hallucinogenic or significantly toxic. To quote Wikipedia, "Anyone binging on absinthe would die of alcohol poisoning long before the thujone would cause any life-threatening effects."

Point 2: "toxic to brain and liver"... at that high a concentration of alcohol -- maybe it wasn't the thujone?

Actually, the current thinking is that it was the high alcohol concentration in absinthe that was responsible for its effects. This, however, is orthogonal to the documented toxicity of thujone itself. (Thujone is a GABA antagonist, and causes muscle spasms and convulsions. LD₅₀ dose is 45mg/kg in rats, with 100% lethality at 60mg/kg, causing death within minutes. No LD₅₀ dose has been established in humans.)

[bbullock.livejournal.com]

I understand another theory holds that manufacturers who wanted to get the color on the cheap used heavy metals, which led to brain damage.
Don't know the veracity...

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Huh ...... chromium salts? Not that anyone'd ever do anything like that.

(cough, cough, melamine, cough...)

[argonel.livejournal.com]

Goes back to my theroy that anyone who say "it's natural it's good for you" should be fed a salad made from white oleander and deadly nightshade with hemlock tea on the side.

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

Add Aminita verna flakes on top?

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

Thujone is also supposed to be one of the active ingredients in absinthe. Supposedly it has psychoactive properties and that's why absinthe was banned in most of Europe but other alcoholic beverages weren't. However, there's some debate as to how much thujone was actually in old-school absinthe of the sort that Messrs. Toulouse-Lautrec et. al. were imbibing; a lot of people believe there wasn't any, or there was too little there to be of consequence, and that absinthe was mostly banned because of the people who drank it--mostly artists and other bohemians whose way of life scared "normal" people.

I've never heard of thuja being touted as a workable remedy for warts

[dakiwiboid.livejournal.com]

I've actually charmed off a wart though. If you Google the subject of wart-charming, you'll find a fair number of articles on the subject. here's one that gives a couple of ways to do it at the end (http://www.drgreene.com/21_567.html). The method I used involved a piece of salt pork and a nail on a sunny wall on a garage.

[motomuffin.livejournal.com]

Duct tape.

No, really.

[perspicuity.livejournal.com]

concur :)

#

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

We've tried it. It didn't work. We're trying the vinegar treatment, and early indications thus far seem promising.

[cymrullewes.livejournal.com]

The duct tape kept slipping off her fingers when she was sleeping. It was the first thing I tried. Then he took her to the pediatrician and they recommended the OTC freeze kit and when that didn't work recommended the MASCO variety of callus remover. That didn't work either.

[meglimir.livejournal.com]

oh yeh homeopathy - fixing a problem by waving something at it that may or may not have been in contact with something that has either similar or opposite characteristics as the problem you want to fix. beh.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Exactly. It's chicken-waving combined with the old magical Principle of Contagion. Except there is no chicken.

[rosencrantz23.livejournal.com]

whenever the subject of homeopathy comes up, I first think of this webcomic (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/675.html), and secondly, of this essay based on it (http://www.websnark.com/archives/2004/12/dont_forget_the.html) from the always wonderfully snarky and witty Eric Burns, mastermind behind websnark.com (http://websnark.com).

[plutosonium.livejournal.com]

I was raised to believe that homeopathy was for crackpots. Also chiropractic. Chiropractic I was forced into by friends who couldn't stand to see me in pain anymore, and it's the reason I now walk upright. Homeopathy I was incredibly skeptical of, but it's the only thing that kept my cat from barfing when he was so sick he almost died. (And thus allowed him to start keeping water down.) And I don't think he does power of suggestion. So now I wonder what's up with it.

[genuine-snark.livejournal.com]

There's a distinct difference between easing spinal and other joint/bone issues by skillful manipulation, and attempting to fix all the ills of the body through mysterious subluxations.

Doesn't help that so many chiropractors also style themselves as life coaches, nutritionists, homeopathic physicians, what-have-you.

Sounds like you don't need it, but here's a site for choosing an honest chiropractor who limits themselves to the skills they actually specialize in.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirochoose.html

[plutosonium.livejournal.com]

Hee! Quackwatch. My mom would love it if only for the name.

But yeah, my chiro seems pretty unquacklike. She is in favor of herbal solutions over prescription, and good nutrition over any kind of medication. So I guess that's a little quacky. But first and foremost she's just really good with adjustments.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Ooo! I'll check that out. I've been trying without success to find a good chiropractor here.

(Trying without success since we left San Jose, actually.)

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

All I know is, no plausible mechanism has ever been propounded for homeopathy that does not violate known physical laws, other than the placebo effect. So I find myself unable to be other than profoundly skeptical of it.

Chiropractic is another matter. I have gone to many chiropractors, and most of them have been complete quacks. One wanted to treat my lower back pain, the cause of which I understood better than he did, by glueing magnets to my back and giving me electric shocks in my earlobe. I was in more pain when I left his office than when I walked in. But there wewre two, both in San Jose, who were very, very good. They had this in common: they understood the spine, had a drop table, and weren't afraid to use it, and they didn't lie to me or fuck around with all the new-age quackery.

[ithildae.livejournal.com]

Plausible mechanism: Resonant chemistry and frequency.

Molecules have certain resonant frequencies based on bond length and atomic mass. Organs and living cells also have resonant frequencies. Match frequencies for strength, use node harmonics for weakening. Harmonics are key.

Not saying it is right, (Though it is unstudied, and makes sense at several levels.) but it does give some sort of plausible mechanism.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but how would that work when there are no molecules of the "active ingredient" left in the preparation? A 30C homeopathic preparation is a 10⁶⁰ dilution. That's almost halfway to the order of magnitude of the number of elementary particles in the universe.

[ithildae.livejournal.com]

That is also many orders of magnitude less than allowed contaminants in perscription medication. Pure and simple BS. Outside of the neutrino detectors, I doubt anyone can measure such concentrations. I only deal in science that does work, or that might work, given more study and thought.

I don't get homeopathy. Chiropractic, aroma, aura, energy healing, yeah, I will give them the benefit of a doubt. (I am firmly convinced that there are fields other than electro-magnetic. We only know how to detect e-m fields, so that is all we have studied.) Maybe homeopathic works at that level.

EDIT: _quietude_ just got home. She is studying to be a nurse-midwife, and is an RN interested in energy medicine. She says that homeopathic is an energy medicine, with very complex interactions. There is no possibility of it interfering with any other perscription medication, because of the math you noted. If you want it to really work for you, you need to see a homeopath to work out what energy needs you have. Absent that, you are taking water.

_quietude_ asked about anti-viral cream? Immune system tonic. Visualization techniques. At this point, it is important to boost the immune system to fight off the virus. An energy option may work.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

As elsewhere mentioned, my experience is chiropractic has a small number of very good, very knowledgeable practitioners, and a large majority of complete quacks.

By antiviral creams, are you — or is she — referring to products like Abreva, for cold sores? If so, it's a good thought. cymrullewes is out at the store right now, but unfortunately I can't reach her cell phone to suggest she buy some, she's out of signal. (Cellular coverage around here is best described as Bloody Awful.)

[ithildae.livejournal.com]

That is what I had in mind.

[attutle.livejournal.com]

Remember, it's homoeopathic, so take two for a headache or one for a migraine.

[rosencrantz23.livejournal.com]

you read irregular webcomic, too?

[attutle.livejournal.com]

Yeah.

[smandal.livejournal.com]

I cured some warts by acid treatments which turn them into blisters, and then they got ripped off horsing around with my little brother -- worked like a charm! ;P

[jmkelly.livejournal.com]

Warts can be difficult, as you probably know. I had a bunch of them on my fingers decades ago that withstood freezing but finally yielded to salicylic acid. The trick seemed to be soaking them in warm water for fifteen minutes first; I think it helped the salicylic acid penetrate. Also, it hurt like hell, and I think that got my brain's attention, and it in turn gave my immune system a nudge.

My dermatologist told me he'd treated a guy who had warts on his face. The doctor told him he wanted to try cauterizing them (I guess as a last resort), and asked if he wanted anesthetic. The guy said, "Naw, man, I was in 'Nam, go to it." And at the first touch of the electric needle the guy fainted. The doctor brought him to and sent him home, saying, "Come back in two weeks and we'll try again." When the guy came back, all his warts were gone.

As for homeopathy: it cured my hay fever, but the story doesn't say much for it. I started with a chain-drug-store formulation and was surprised that it seemed to work. I read up on it a little and started getting different kinds of pills from the health-food store -- for nasal congestion, coughs, etc. After a while I noticed that any of them could clear up nasal congestion: as soon as I put a couple of them under my tongue, my nose would clear up, no matter what kind of pills they were. Suggestion is powerful.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Yay placebo effect. :)