Profile

unixronin: Galen the technomage, from Babylon 5: Crusade (Default)
Unixronin

December 2012

S M T W T F S
      1
2345678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
3031     

Most Popular Tags

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Sunday, April 5th, 2009 07:11 pm

Science is an exacting, meticulous process of continuously discovering that most of what we think we know about the universe is wrong, discarding it, and replacing it with something incrementally closer to the truth as measured by how much of the universe it manages to successfully and self-consistently explain.

Sunday, April 5th, 2009 11:14 pm (UTC)
sounds reasonable. Science is the process of becoming progressively less wrong.
Sunday, April 5th, 2009 11:25 pm (UTC)
and yet... scientists use the word "law" - which often closes their minds to possibilities. Even those who 'practice' science can be rigid in their thinking.

What if there is no "Truth-with-a-capital-T"?
Sunday, April 5th, 2009 11:36 pm (UTC)
I do not think that word means what you think it means.

"Law" in science just means "Rule of thumb", in general.
Sunday, April 5th, 2009 11:39 pm (UTC)
Probably time to amend the terminology, I should think...
Sunday, April 5th, 2009 11:42 pm (UTC)
When did "law" ever mean "absolute truth"?
Monday, April 6th, 2009 12:08 am (UTC)
Well, Moses did seem to have rather a thing about those tablets...
Monday, April 6th, 2009 12:13 am (UTC)
And then proceeded to enumerate a long list of exceptions.
Monday, April 6th, 2009 12:16 am (UTC)
But yes, point taken.
Sunday, April 5th, 2009 11:39 pm (UTC)
Also, "Truth" is "Whatever produces the best results". What's true today is true provisionally, until something that's more true (or less wrong) comes along.

Perfection is the enemy of 'good enough'.

(frozen)

Monday, April 6th, 2009 04:49 am (UTC)
Seriously... you felt the need to post 2 different comments to try and wage a semantics war in order to pretend you know more than I do? Yeah... okay, I'll rise to that bait.

Or not.

Thank you Mr. Webster, I'll stick with the real dictionary.

(frozen)

Monday, April 6th, 2009 05:12 am (UTC)
I think you could have been more of a dick with that response. Please, put a little effort into it next time; perhaps you could insult my mother or cast aspersions on the nature of my relationship with my cats.

I'm certain you could do better, so I'm only giving you 5/10.

(frozen)

Monday, April 6th, 2009 05:19 am (UTC)
I could've been more of a dick - if I were a guy - but since I'm not, I'll just leave that up to you. Care to add another comment so you can prove you have one?

(frozen)

Monday, April 6th, 2009 05:21 am (UTC)
Dickery is pretty irrespective of gender. I calls it as I sees it.

(frozen)

Monday, April 6th, 2009 12:14 pm (UTC)
Why did you feel the need to start a flame war here? I don't see any "pretense of knowing more than you" here, just a statement of opinion.

I'm freezing this thread before it gets any pettier. Play nice, please.
Sunday, April 5th, 2009 11:42 pm (UTC)

Check this out, it's a great little piece on "open mindedness" and how purveyors of woo use it to promote closed-mindedness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=player_embedded
Monday, April 6th, 2009 12:32 am (UTC)
and yet... scientists use the word "law" - which often closes their minds to possibilities.
Ah, but does it?

Science tends to declare something a "law" when it is believed that a specific formula has been found which completely describes the behavior of a substance, an object, or a system of objects, under any conditions. Examples include Newton's laws of motion, to which we have found no exceptions; Newton's law of universal gravitation; Boyle's ideal gas law; or the law of conservation of parity.

But wait! No gases actually obey Boyle's law perfectly. Well, true ... that's because they aren't perfect ideal gases. This is something that's been understood for a long time. Only rather more recently did we learn why there can be no such thing as a perfect gas ... we have approximations to ideal gases, and they approximately obey Boyle's Law, with greater or lesser degrees of fidelity depending on their exact physical properties — enough so that we can have good confidence in saying that an actual ideal gas would follow Boyle's Law perfectly. And more recently, we've found that certain exotic states of matter actually approach ideal gases more closely than anything we normally encounter in the everyday material world, and they do indeed obey Boyle's Law to astounding degrees of precision.

Newton's laws of motion still have no exceptions known to us, in this universe.

Newton's law of universal gravitation, though? ... Well, almost 30 years ago now, Mordehai Milgrom observed that certain anomalies found in astronomical observations could be explained if we speculated that gravity does not behave precisely as Newton thought it did. More specifically, he proposed that the anomalies could be explained if gravity were very slightly stronger at extremely low accelerations than Newton's law said it should be. This theory came to be known as Modified Newtonian Dynamics, or MOND.
But MOND was inconsistent with relativity. (Of course, classical Einsteinian relativity is inconsistent with quantum mechanics ... But I digress.) This was a problem. Also, Milgrom proposed no physical mechanism to explain why it should be so; he merely pointed out that if it were so, it would explain the observations.
So another group of researchers, seeking to make MOND compatible with relativity, started playing around the idea. Their basic idea was, "What if gravity is more complex than we realize?" And what they came up with was something they called TeVeS, for tensor-vector-scalar gravity. It proposes that there are multiple components to gravity, of which only one component is significant and observable at everyday scales. Unlike MOND, it is consistent with relativity. But like MOND, it is still only descriptive, not prescriptive; and like MOND, it cannot explain all of our observations.
At the same time, another school of thought was studying the problem from the basis of what it would take to explain the questioned observations on the assumption that Newtonian gravity is both correct and complete. This led into what's become known as the cold-dark-matter theory. CDM has its problems too, though; so far, to make the math work, it's been necessary for CDM theorists to invent a new, so far unobserved kind of matter (the dark matter of the name) making up as much as three quarters of the mass of the universe, necessary to account for the observed velocities of starts orbiting galaxies; a new kind of energy referred to as dark energy, required to account for expansion of the universe in the presence of all that dark matter; and possibly even a fifth basic force in the universe. While widely believed, this theory has its flaws and its things it cannot explain, too, among them the ever-increasing complexity that seems to be required to make the math work in every case.
Monday, April 6th, 2009 12:35 am (UTC)
The most recent new insight on this front proposes that a "theory of everything" called M-theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory) offers a possible physical mechanism by which all of our observations to date could be explained more completely than MOND/TeVeS, on a way consistent with relativity and quantum mechanics, without requiring dark matter. Put simply, it postulates that gravitons, the hypothetical carrier particle of the gravitational force, are loosely bound to the brane — roughly, the fabric of space-time — and the to leak off the brane. Once off the brane, they can interact with matter on the brane only gravitationally; they tend to cluster close to the brane at first, but diffuse away over time. This gives a gravitational force that follows Newton's law at local scales, becomes fractionally stronger at galactic and intergalactic scales due to the clouds of extra gravitons that have leaked off the brane (accounting for the rotational observations), and fractionally weaker than Newtonian gravity at truly huge scales as gravitons diffuse away from the brane through the bulk (accounting for the observed expansion of the universe).

So, state of Newton's law? Still hanging in there, but it may be showing cracks.

Well, how about conservation of parity?

Oops. That one went totally out of the window in 1956, when experiments at NIST proved that parity was not conserved in beta decay of cobalt-60 nucleii. (http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Parity/expt.html) Junking conservation of parity actually laid the way for making a heck of a lot of physics a lot more consistent, and allowed a lot of major new work.


So, yeah. There will always be rigid thinkers who regard anything called a law as inviolable. But I think for every scientist who assumes without question that something must be incorrect or experimental error because it appears to violate what's believed to be a known physical law, there's another who thinks "How can I explain this phenomenon in a physically consistent way without violating this law?", and another who asks, "What if this law isn't entirely correct, or is actually wrong?"

I'd go so far as to suggest that these kind of questions are very much harder to ask if there is not an existing framework of believed-correct laws. If you have no physical laws that everything is believed to obey, then something that behaves differently than you've hitherto seen is just something that behaves differently. But if you have a law that says it shouldn't, then sooner or later, some scientist is going to look at it, see that it appears not to obey one or another law, and think "Huh, that's funny. I wonder what's going on there...?"

And that's how the majority of the most dramatic and interesting new discoveries happen. Someone, somewhere, says "Huh, that's funny..."
Monday, April 6th, 2009 02:48 am (UTC)
Science changes one funereal at a time.

Laws are simply a hypothesis that has not been challenged successfully by new discoveries in a very long time. It doesn't make the law correct, but it does give it some staying power.

I would argue that an ideal standard, that is never met, is far better for science than an overly complex explanation and model. Something that is simpler is much easier to extrapolate from, providing predictions and directing experimental scientists in what to look for. (Lots of opportunities for a, "That's interesting..." moment.) Something that provides a great mathematical explanation, that is too complex to predict from, is useless to science. My favorite quote along those lines,
It's not even wrong.
Monday, April 6th, 2009 05:05 am (UTC)
See, you say "Examples include Newton's laws of motion, to which we have found no exceptions" and my response is "perhaps because no one believes they need to look for them, since they are laws."

I'm reminded of the case of Roman numeral multiplication & division - which was broken when I was in high school in 1980. By a *high school student*.

Common theory always said that Roman numerals were a limited system because to multiply & divide them was nearly impossible. It was a 16 year old high school student who went home thinking "that's crazy - how could you build such a strong civilization with a limited mathematical system?" and solved the problem. Overnight. Because he refused to believe it was impossible. Something that mathematicians for centuries had been saying was "true."

He went in and showed the system to his math teacher - who didn't believe him at first. Because "everyone knows it can't be done." The math teacher had to take it to his college professor/mentor to get the article co-published in American Mathematics Monthly before anyone would take it seriously.

The reason I know? MY high school math teacher went to undergrad school with the student's teacher & studied under James Kennedy - and I learned it the semester it came out in AMM.

The word "law" implies that something can't be broken. Whether or not you believe that all scientific "laws" are only in effect until proven otherwise? You still make assumptions in your hypotheses. That's where the problem lies.


Monday, April 6th, 2009 11:55 am (UTC)
See, you say "Examples include Newton's laws of motion, to which we have found no exceptions" and my response is "perhaps because no one believes they need to look for them, since they are laws."
Oh, believe me, plenty of people have tried to find ways to cheat Newton's laws, just like plenty of people have tried to cheat the laws of thermodynamics. Both include pretty much everyone who's ever tried to build anything they claimed was a perpetual motion machine. Everyone who's tried to find a flaw in either has failed.

(Well, actually, I should qualify that. No exception to Newton's laws has been shown, in the Newtonian frame. Einstein and Lorentz, among others, showed that Newton's laws do not apply, unmodified, in other frames of reference. The laws of thermodynamics have still proven unassailable to date, in any reference frame; most recently, even black holes have been found to obey thermodynamics, in that it has been shown that they do not in fact destroy information about what they consume.)

Your example of multiplying Roman numerals does not strike me as the counter-example you appear to think it is. In the first place, "Things everyone knows" and "Laws of science|mathematics" are not the same thing. Everyone "knew" that heavier-than-air machines could not fly, until the Wright Brothers did it. In the 1700s, it was common "knowledge" that the human body could not long survive the terrible stresses of speeds in excess of twenty-five miles per hour. And from Greco-Roman times until the Renaissance, everyone "knew" that there were only four elements — earth, air, fire, and water. But hah! Becher proved that old canard false in 1667, when he discovered phlogiston.

In the second place, is the crucial fact here that he was the first since perhaps mediaeval times to say "This doesn't make sense, the Romans couldn't have done what they did without multiplication and division", or was he simply the first person since people started saying that to not only say it, but also have both the necessary mathematical tools at his disposal and the key insight that enabled him to rediscover how to do it?
Monday, April 6th, 2009 05:20 pm (UTC)
See, I think we're arguing at different points here. You use words like "cheat" - which implies an initial belief that the law is valid, but there might be a way around it.

I brought up the example to point out that starting out from the point that your mental perception is "well that can't be done" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Do I think Newton's Laws will "be broken"? Not by anyone who perceives them as laws. Do I believe they are what's the word you used "unassailable"? No. My own life-experience has shown me otherwise... it's a locked entry, but I'll link it for you so you know part of why I'm saying what I am http://yndy.livejournal.com/610339.html

The whole point of what I am replying with is that one's ontology forms not just one's perceptions of the universe, but one's ability to perceive differently.

Examining the language is crucial.
Law (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/law)
a. a statement of a relation or sequence of phenomena invariable under the same conditions.
b. a mathematical rule.


"invariable" and "rule" are both inflexible terms.

Here's a different example that may illustrate what I'm trying to point out to you about your ontological map of the universe. Go look up the verb "sex" in any dictionary. Usually you'll get rerouted to sexual intercourse or coitus... despite the fact that recent years have seen a movement toward non-gender specific sex, the entries still show "esp. between a man and a woman" or "esp. inserting penis into a vagina". For literally decades (centuries?) anything that didn't include one of each gender was not defined as sex. So what exactly were gay men and lesbians engaging in?

How we as a society perceive words (no, not the individual 'well I define it thusly even tho that's not it's accepted definition' argument) limits us in how we perceive the universe - and also limits us into areas of inquiry.

"But why would we doubt that? No one has ever found a way around it...yet"

Sunday, April 5th, 2009 11:55 pm (UTC)
I thought it was about the babes?

Did I go into the wrong profession!?
Wednesday, May 27th, 2009 11:25 pm (UTC)
yet my students expect me to give them the answers rather than the ability to ask the right questions (and properly research them...)

gah.