Setting the record straight

[unixronin]

There's this meme going around that calls for you to write about a Supreme Court decision you disagree with.  But it didn't start out that way.  It started out just as, "Write about a Supreme Court decision other than Roe v. Wade."  Because, after all, "that's the only Supreme Court decision Sarah Palin's ever heard of."

Except that's not true.  The actual question put to Palin (wording not guaranteed to be exact) wasn't "Do you know any Supreme Court decisions other than Roe v. Wade?"  It was, "Do you know any Supreme Court decisions that you disagree with, other than Roe v. Wade?"

I think we can all agree that's a very, very different question to answer "No" to.

Fer crissake, people, NONE of these candidates are paragons.  Doesn't any one of them have enough flaws worthy of criticism without people just making up extra ones to bash them about?

Comments

[tommx.livejournal.com]

I don't need her to be a paragon, but I do need a competent person in that office. I don't believe she is. Her selection as VP is insulting to the voting public because it assumes that they care more about how folksy she is than about her ability to govern.

I disagree with John McCain vehemently, but I at least consider him to have some competence as a Senator.

[unix-jedi.livejournal.com]

Her selection as VP is insulting to the voting public

Hold on up there, pardner.

She's hardly an insult to me (and many people I know and respect.) She's cemented the fact that I'm definitely going to vote, and vote for McCain. Who else could he have picked that would be pulling the crowds, the interest, and the enthusiasm?

I think you're insulting a large percent of the voting population by assuming that they'd be insulted with her on the ticket - and that's not really borne out by the before/after.

[tommx.livejournal.com]

You have your opinions, I have mine. By all means, vote your conscience and I will vote mine.

[unix-jedi.livejournal.com]

Opinions are fine and dandy, but when you're going to make a claim that's utterly unsupported by the facts, you might want to back it up a bit more.

IIRC, McCain hadn't managed to pull more than 4000 in any gathering around Central Florida - McCain/Palin pulled 60k. (Bush only got 20k in his best gathering in that area.)

She's insulting to the voting public by boosting McCain by (tens?) of millions of votes? That's like the Chewbacca defense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUP5GzHIojU). It doesn't make sense!

Opinions aren't divorced from facts. Claiming that Palin "insults" the voting public (after watching them embrace her!) is just disingenuous. No one who was going to vote for McCain has realistically changed their vote because of the choice of Palin. As I asked you, who else could he have picked?

But her pick has brought in a lot of support and (one would presume) votes. If you'd said that before the reaction to Palin's pick was known, that would be a fine opinion, but to claim that a month later is completely counterfactual.

[tommx.livejournal.com]

I'm not questioning anyone's right to vote as they choose. I'm stating my opinion based on the facts as I see them. If you think McCain is the way to go, vote for him. I may be wrong to vote for Obama, and you clearly think I am. I don't think I am.

I'm not going to get into a flame war with you over a topic we clearly are never going to see eye to eye on regardless of how many facts we throw at each other.

[unix-jedi.livejournal.com]

I'm not questioning anyone's right to vote as they choose.

I've never - despite a prior attempt at you to start that strawman - said otherwise.

I'm stating my opinion based on the facts as I see them.

As I asked you initially - what facts? I wasn't trying to start a "flame war" - what you're saying makes absolutely no sense from an factual basis. I can conceive of no way it does, and I'm a voter who specifically rebuts your postulation. Thus my request for more information to understand what you mean and where you're coming from.

So I asked you to explain. You replied with, basically, "I have no facts, shut up."

may be wrong to vote for Obama, and you clearly think I am.

While I might think that, where have I ever said that here? You said [Palin's] selection as VP is insulting to the voting public because it assumes that they care more about how folksy she is than about her ability to govern.
Where has Obama come up in this discussion at all?

I'm not going to get into a flame war with you over a topic we clearly are never going to see eye to eye on regardless of how many facts we throw at each other.

The first fact you "throw" will be the first. I resent the implication that I'm trying to disenfranchise you, and the implication that I've somehow ignored your "facts" when you have yet to present any! And now you've changed the subject to Obama...?

Perhaps I should say, I think that your thought process, such as it is, is very well spelled out by this, and I wish you well in Nov.

[tommx.livejournal.com]

And now you've changed the subject to Obama...?

Er, last I checked, he and McCain were the candidates for the election, not their running mates. You said earlier you were voting for McCain meaning you don't think Obama is the right person to be president. I do.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

I didn't suggest anyone was looking for paragons. I just said that all the candidates have plenty of real flaws, leaving no need to fabricate additional ones that the facts don't support. Doing so just makes the fabricators look bad.

I agree with unix_jedi, though; I don't see how her selection is possibly any more of an insult to the voting public than any other recent candidate for national-level office.

I do, however, think that the oft-repeated suggestion that she was selected solely for being a woman, in order to win over disaffected Hillary Clinton supporters, is insulting both to those voters and to her. I mean, come on ... Democratic voters so hard-core behind Hillary for President that they're mad at Obama for getting the nomination are going to switch parties just because the Republicans put up a woman as a VP candidate? I don't think so.

[jmkelly.livejournal.com]

Oh, actually there are a few of those -- disaffected Hillary Clinton supporters ready to vote for McCain/Palin -- check out http://www.puma08.com. How much choosing Palin affected their judgment is anyone's guess; maybe if McCain had picked Gingrich or Romney it wouldn't have made a difference.

I agree that to suggest that her gender was the only reason for selecting her is insulting. It's also madly unrealistic -- no one in politics does anything for only one reason. But I think it's fair to say that her gender was a major factor. Of course I'm only speculating; I know no one in McCain's organization -- but from where I sit, I would say the sheer contrariness of picking her was a large part of the decision -- it reinforced McCain's maverick image, it put a woman on the Republican ticket after the Democrats had declined to put a woman on theirs, and then there's Governor Palin herself, a publicity magnet if there ever was one. And then there's her appeal to the evangelical right, which gets nauseous when it looks at McCain. No, it was much more than an insult.

If by some obscene mischance she gets to be president, that won't be an insult; it'll be a catastrophe. She's a spunky feminine version of Dubya.

[radarrider.livejournal.com]

Having read your discussion with unix_jedi I think there's something that he missed.

You said, "Her selection as VP is insulting to the voting public because it assumes that they care more about how folksy she is than about her ability to govern."

What you have done is make an assumption about what her selection assumes. In other words, you're saying that McCain chose her for that reason and not because of her success as the first female governor of Alaska and other accomplishments.

Assuming (there's that word again :-]) that this is correct, I have to say I disagree. While her folksy charm was likely *one* reason why she was selected, there are many other things about her that recommend her. I don't see how the argument that the McCain campaign assumes that said folksy charm is the characteristic that the voting public considers paramount over all others is supported. (Whew, how's that for a sentence?)

[chuckles48.livejournal.com]

I would ask, then, that if you think (a) we need a competent person in that office, and (b) that she doesn't have the "ability to govern"....

How the HELL can someone, such as yourself, justify voting for Obama?

Who:
(a) has less experience at all levels in public life; and
(b) Has NEVER held an executive position, having gone from ConLaw asst. prof. to Illinois state legislator to Senator.

Just wondering. And if you're not voting for Obama, it's kinda moot, neh?

[tommx.livejournal.com]

Well, since a condition of my vote is to justify it to anyone who demands one, let me spell it out for you...

Oh wait...I don't.

I vote as I see fit. I don't ask you to justify your vote, so don't you dare demand of me that I justify mine to you or anyone else.

[chuckles48.livejournal.com]

Never said you _had_ to justify it. But I was asking after the logic, given your statements that (a) Palin isn't competent to be VP, and (b) she doesn't have the "ability to govern"... as VP.

Esp. given that Obama (a) has less experience in public life, and (b) has less demonstrated executive background.

Vote for whoever you damn well please. But if you're going to spout them off to the rest of the world, you might as well be prepared to either defend them, or see them tossed in the trashcan.

[fair-witness.livejournal.com]

It is a different question, but I wish she'd given a better answer to the question Couric asked her. Palin could've responded with a discussion on the Supreme Court hearing regarding the Exxon Valdez punitive damages. That's something that affected her state, and she'd already gone on the record as disagreeing with it. It would've been a great opportunity for her to talk about corporate responsibility, or as a chance to display her credentials as a politician who hasn't been afraid to go toe-to-toe with Big Oil.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Gotta agree, yes, she missed one there.

[fair-witness.livejournal.com]

The more I think about it, the more I think she missed a huge opportunity there. It's the sort of Supremes decision she really could've used to appeal not only to the GOP base but to independents/undecideds.

[anda.livejournal.com]

Actually, I would note that the meme doesn't call for you to post one that you disagree with - just post about -any- Supreme Court decision.

Certainly, I didn't post one that I disagree with. I also, as you may have noticed, mentioned that the question asked was not what the meme says.

Regardless of the political shenanigans going on and associated with the meme, I have still quite enjoyed and learned some things from this meme ... while I recognized some of them once I saw names, I've seen a number of more obscure ones pulled out, and maybe have a shot at remembering some names next time.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Actually, I would note that the meme doesn't call for you to post one that you disagree with - just post about -any- Supreme Court decision.

Ah, you've seen the original version of the meme then. :)

[anda.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I haven't seen the version you mention at all.

[wyrdling.livejournal.com]

i'd choose the one where they decided eminent domain... which is written to cover public works, allowed a city back east to raze a historic district in order to clear space for a private business mall.

but, well, i've no interest in discussing the candidates. i hate election season... too many people get caught up in ideological fervor and i figure most of the people i know have come to their decisions for reasons important to them, and i wouldn't begin to assume i know better than they what matters to them. can of worms i don't feel like playing with.

that, and presidential campaigns are dirty and i hate them.

[cymrullewes.livejournal.com]

Political campaigns (as opposed to "campaigns for jobs") have become against the other instead of for the position.

[wyrdling.livejournal.com]

aye.
not sure if that's really ever been different.
it's far easier to "convince" more people by hitting their emotions rather than their logic.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Right, Kelo vs. New London. That was a bad decision, no question of it.

[wyrdling.livejournal.com]

aye.
though i'd have to google to come up with the name of the decision ;)

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't have remembered it unprompted, but, once prompted, remembered the case. There was a significant movement around here to express displeasure by taking Justice Souter's house under eminent domain to put up a pool hall or a fast-food restaurant or something.

[cymrullewes.livejournal.com]

Hotel and the guy who wanted to buy it said he'd keep it running even if it never turned a profit just to discomfort Souter.