Semi-random thought

[unixronin]

The problem with believing in a god who forgives all of one's sins is that it leads to the assumption that all sins are forgiveable, and therefore permissible.  (But perhaps that's the point.)

Discuss.

Comments

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

There's a difference in believing in a god who CAN forgive all sins, and believing in a god who DOES forgive all sins. The latter implies that there need be no effort on the sinner's part, hence no threat of discipline for sins and substantially less motivation to try not to sin.

[fatcook.livejournal.com]

I agree. The sinner must show remorse and contrition to be forgiven and/or redeemed. Just to be given forgiveness without any action on the part of the sinner implies that you can do anything and you will be forgiven. Example: Jim Baker.

[meglimir.livejournal.com]

In the context of "a god who forgives all of one's sins", a sin is a non-permissible item that is doable (or thinkable) and forgiveable. Permissible items (action, thought, etc.) are not candidates for forgiveness, because an item cannot be both forgiveable and permissible - the states are mutually exclusive. To put another way, if for any given item forgiveness is absolutely always automatic and transparent to the potential recipient, that item is by definition not a sin. (Any permissible item can be imagined to be a sin; but that is outside the scope of this reply.)

The statement "believing in a god who forgives all of one's sins" is ambiguous, and certain assumptions about that ambiguity can indeed lead to the rationale that all is permissible rather than forgiveable, thus nullifying the concept of sin. Other assumptions about the same ambiguity can lead to the rationale that forgiveness for some or all sins is available in theory but unattainable in practice, thus nullifying the concept of forgiveness.

[pernishus.livejournal.com]

The rub lies in your 'therefore' ==> it ain't necessarily so...

[elegantelbow.livejournal.com]

Forgiveable is not equivalent to permissible. And forgiveness is not free. The sinner must do penance and truly repent their sin.

[bbullock.livejournal.com]

All things being equal, I expect that if there is a god/God who can forgive sins, and the whole Christian Heaven/Hell paradigm turns out to be accurate, there are a whole lot of folks who are going to end up in Hell, despite the fact that they have "forgiven themselves" for their sins. Because, you know, I think being genuinely sorry is kind of a requirement.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty much in agreement with that. I have this idea that if a Hell really exists, there is a spot in it set aside for those who believe in it primarily so that they can wish others there.

[kayre]

Maybe the problem is that it leads to the assumption that it's all about sin-- when in fact we're supposed to get past the whole 'sin' thing and focus on other things.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

I certainly think a lot of people get far too worked up over hunting down sin, th the exclusion of more important things. Like, say, actually treating people decently. A lot of the devout are ready to recite "Love the sinner, hate the sin" at the drop of a hat, but when push comes to shove they tend to forget which it is they're supposed to be hating. (Fred Phelps and his little incestuous crew of sociopaths are only the most visible example of this.)

I'm reminded of something I heard some years back ... back when the Right Thing for all properly pious Christians to do in their spare time was to play all their children's records backwards looking for back-masked satanic messages, Christian heavy-metal band Stryper put a back-masked message on one of their albums, targeted specifically at the people obsessed with hunting for back-masked messages.

The message said, "Why are you looking for Satan when you should be looking for God?"

[ithildae.livejournal.com]

That only applies if you assume that forgiveness is automatic, requiring no effort or activity on your part. The real question is: What is the goal of G-d? What role should He play in our lives? If there are no good answers forthcoming for those questions, talking about G-d is kind of pointless.

[In my religious tradition, not all sins are forgivable. Granted, there are very few in that category, but the category exists.]

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

That only applies if you assume that forgiveness is automatic, requiring no effort or activity on your part.

Most of the ostentatiously pious — particularly the ones who like to tell everyone else to do as they say, not as they do — certainly seem to operate under the assumption that it doesn't require any actual sincerity, and that it will be granted pro-forma simply because they went to church on Sunday morning and went through the motions pro-forma.

(Hey, wait a minute ... didn't the Christian Savior and Messiah say something about not needing to build churches because the Omnipresent, Omniscient Christian Deity was, like, everywhere anyway? Right there in the Bible that we're repeatedly told is the literal word of God and therefore every word is and must be literally true? Come on, people, if you're going to insist it's the literal word of your deity, then at least pay attention to what it says. I continue to maintain that churches aren't places for believing in or worshipping your god — they're places for being seen to do so by your neighbors.)

[ithildae.livejournal.com]

Gatherings of worshipers are for the purpose of reinforcing the idea of G-d in our minds. Left to ourselves, very few of us can maintain the focus on Deity with the distractions of life around us. We need to gather to worship. I never said that we needed a particular building type to worship in.

Generally, we find what we are looking for. If we go to church looking for hypocrisy and ostentation, we are bound to find it. (There are a few choice words about those in the Bible too.) If we attend Church looking to find a spirit of peace and love that will allow us to change our desires to help others more, we can find that too.

The best part about G-d is that He takes us as we are, and helps to make us better. We don't have to be perfect (or even good) to start.