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Q: What do you do when you and two of your buddies, in a drunken haze, beat another acquaintance to death over a period of 24 hours or so, wrap his naked body in a tarpaulin and hide it in his garage, then get turned in to the police ten days later by a third friend to whom you boasted of the murder (and to whom you emailed camera-phone photos, at work, during the process)?
[1] He wasn't.
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I still don't see that as being proven by any point of this.
The fact is, the defendants are claiming that he was, which makes this a hate crime.
Because beating and torturing someone, hiding a body, and bragging about all of the above is ... somehow worse because they called him gay?
This neatly encapsulates why "hate crimes" are a bit of political theater that serves no real purpose.
The fact that it might - might - prevent someone from using a appeal-to-bigotry as an "affirmative defense" is hardly worth the Orwellian issues with "thoughtcrime".
beat another acquaintance to death over a period of 24 hours or so, wrap his naked body in a tarpaulin and hide it in his garage, then get turned in to the police ten days later by a third friend to whom you boasted of the murder (and to whom you emailed camera-phone photos, at work, during the process)?
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Hate crimes absolutely do serve a real purpose. You are, if memory serves, a straight white male, so you don't understand, but I'll try.
When someone is the victim of an assault or murder, most of the time it is about an issue between the victim and the perpetrator.
When someone is the victim of an assault solely for being queer, a person of colour, what-have-you, it becomes about terrorizing a group.
To use an example posted elsewhere:
1) You wake up in the morning, and there's some graffiti on your garage door. "Fucking kids," you'll think, and try to clean it up.
2) You're gay, and you wake up in the morning, and there's graffiti on your garage door saying "Die AIDS fuckers". You get worried. You wonder what will happen next. Are you safe? You're being targeted because you're gay. Are your neighbours okay? They're gay too. You start living in fear because what was perpetrated agsint you was a hate crime, which is merely a very localized form of terrorism.
Must be nice to be privileged, but do try and recognize that there are many of us who are not, and who have to deal with living in fear because of assholes.
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Isn't that an aggravating circumstance in most HC locales? I do believe that it is! You're discriminating against me because of my (presumed) race and sexual orientation!
Why wouldn't I understand about hate crimes because I'm presumed to be straight and white?
Ok, so straight whites aren't allowed the Victim Card.
Who else? Please be inclusive and exact.
That's why this is thoughtcrime - and Orwellian - because the crimes and the victims are only defined afterward.
Your 2 examples aren't the same. It's a lousy pair of "examples" to try and show me my fallacy.
1) I wake up, and there's "KISS RULES! STYX SUCKS!" on my garage, I don't worry overmuch. It's against the law. Just not a very serious offense.
2) I wake up, and there's "DIE [anything]" on my garage, that's a threat. (And it's a much more serious crime against the law than mere graffitti).
What you're saying is that if the artists use ... certain - undefined! words - the court must ascertain that the artists were trying to scare a "protected" group - meaning that if say, the local gang spray paints "DIE SNITCH" on my garage, that it's really not as bad as if they said "DIE FAGGOT SNITCH".
It removes the crime from a mostly-factual finding "The defendant did/did not paint on property not his own" to a contextual issue of what the defendant meant to do - and only if it's against a certain subset.
no subject
Again:
Hate crimes are not targeted at one person, they are targeted at a group of people. Generally speaking, at a group of people who are gistorically victimized--women, people of colour, queers.
And, sorry, straight white males in North American society don't tend to be victimized in the same ways that women, people of colour, and queers do. Do you really think that gaybashing is only about someone beating someone else up? Do you really think that lynchings are only about killing one person? Of course not. They are actions designed to cause terror in a certain segment of the population.
Laws tend to recognize the difference between crimes which have a limited effect versus those which affect the community at large. That is what hate crime legislation addresses.
However, I'm quite certain that you'll just continue to be snarky and refuse to understand that despite vaunted claims to the contrary, all people are not treated equally, and that yes, extra protection is needed for some. I am done with you.
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Then how does this "neatly encapsulate proof" that more laws are needed?
This crime wasn't about terror, it wasn't about a group of people, this particular case is totally at odds with your argument.. The murder wasn't (alleged) to be committed to be designed to cause terror - he victim was killed in private and the crime covered up.
That is what hate crime legislation addresses.
Which as flawed as it is (and the Orwellian issues it raises and you have been ignoring), is mooted by the fact that this case is the opposite of what you're claiming now.
It's a (hopefully flawed and useless) attempt at rationalization. But it invoked a knee-jerk reaction in you - which demonstrates more about you than I, I'm afraid.
all people are not treated equally, and that yes, extra protection is needed for some. I am done with you.
Ah, yes, invoking Orwell is absurd.
But some animals are more equal than others.
Right. My mistake.
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That is not what I said, you intellectually dishonest fuck.
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Extra protection is needed for some.
Some animals are more equal than others.
Well, if you're going to insist those two aren't very analogous, I belive you'll have to explain it to me. They certainly seem to be, well, identical to me.
That is not what I said, you intellectually dishonest fuck.
Thank you. This demonstrates exactly my problem with "Hate Crimes Laws".
You've dismissed my arguments solely because of your presumption of what "group(s)" I belong to. You've ignored that this case is in direct, diametric opposition to what you're now arguing.
Now you get (very) angry, and project "intellectual dishonesty" onto me - because I had the audacity to point out that your argument fails this case. (And I'm from a to-be-ignored class.)
Who's guilty of intellectual dishonesty here? Who's guilty of hating someone because of their class?
I don't know your class, I don't care. The fact that you have to presume classes (very incorrectly) for the people you disagree with, in order to dismiss their points demonstrates exactly my concern about how "Hate Crimes Law" is used.
You ignored all of that in order to slander and insult, only because of your bigotry. If you've got a irony meter, it ought to be pegged.
So, under your rationalization, you lose even more because you're hating me while being wrong!
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I'll try and use small words--maybe that way you will understand. I'm not very hopeful, but I suppose it's a good deed to at least try to educate those who are regressive in their thinking.
Some groups are deserving of more protection is not 'some are more equal than others'; it is an attempt to address the fact that some groups are easier to victimize than others, and are frequently victimized for that reason amongst others.
Children? Unable to protect themselves, ergo deserving of more protection.
People of colour? Historically in North America (particularly the USA) had no recourse for protection, as even attempts at self-defence would be met with even more severe violence.
Queers? See above.
Women? See above.
Extra protection brings victimized groups up to the same level.
You are one disgusting person, you know that? I projected nothing on to you. You took what I said and twisted it to fit your preconceptions. That is intellectual dishonesty, you turd.
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I dislike you ebcause you are an intellectually dishonest fool who can't even argue his own laughable position without resorting to twisting what I have said.
I pity you because you are brainwashed by the peculiarly American 'git yer hands off me' attitude. As I said to the other person in this thread, I suspect you're a Libertarian. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, fucks other ducks to make little baby ducks, and is often found swimming on ponds, it's probably a fucking duck.
I feel sorry for you because you are so privileged that you are completely unable to comprehend that some of us are not.
But hate you? No.
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Where do you stop?
Committing murder should be just as much a crime (and after all, the victim is just as dead) whatever the motivation. Terrorizing or harassing someone should be just as much a crime whatever the motivation. If you declare some people to be entitled to special, extra protection under the law, where do you draw the line between the ones entitled to special protection and the ones who aren't? What do you do when everyone's entitled to special protection?
I think this is one of those situations where it's impossible to both treat everyone equally and at the same time treat everyone fairly. But you know that if you treat some people unequally, someone will complain that it's unfair.
But one thing I know for sure is that if we ever want to fix the problem, our legal system has to stop accepting "But he was GAAAAAYYY!!!!" as a defense. You felt threatened because you thought he was coming on to you? THEN FUCKING GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
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I don't think that it does.
It's possible that some jurors might be swayed - but that's the problem we've got with juries. (Why's OJ out playing golf today?)
Given the story as reported (which is pretty bad), I think the problem is that there's some local political clout with the parentage of one of the accused - more so than his lame excuse. (Which is really just a version of the "Twinkie Defense")
In fact, the attention that this has drawn has been soley because of that stupid attempt. I believe that he will decide that he chose.... poorly.
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Someone spraypaints "die, bitch" on my garage, I call the police. And then I call my painter (who happens to be a sweet, sweet pastor, and will be very offended on my behalf. Would be on yours, too).
As far as being afraid of more? Been there. Done that. Got the therapy.
You want to make hate crimes go away? Educate them away, don't legislate them away. Legislation just makes things stupider.
Here's your byline for ANY legislation: Is this a law that is worth someone being killed about? Because remember, if it wants to government can, ultimately, impose capital punishment as the final sentance to any broken law.
Do you think hate crimes should be punished by someone's death? Honestly?
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Government reserves the right to itself to practice capital punishment. Regardless of if it says that it will not right now do so, it certainly will not allow the citizenry to do so, under any circumstances. Government can, and will, change its own position on any number of topics at any given time; this could, under sufficient pressure, become one those topics.
If you cannot think critically, you cannot act, you can only react, and then not necessarily appropriatly. You are, in short, a panicked sheep. And it is pointless to argue with a sheep.
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You're pathetic. I assume you're a Libertarian. The two seem to go hand in hand.
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I didn't say you're stupid. I'm actually assuming you're quite bright, otherwise you wouldn't be on Alaric's journal - stupid people don't tend to be here; they generally fail to understand him.
I said you're a sheep, and in this particular argument, you are. You can't see past your fears, and so you want someone else to fix the problem for you. Legislate it away, make it so that the other side's fears are bigger than yours, and then yours will not be a problem.
It doesn't work that way. It never has, it never will. Trying to explain this to you is pointless, because you don't want to hear it, you don't want to listen, you don't want to do anything but make the fear go away. You're a sheep in this regard. I don't know you well enough to know if you are in any other way. But this is where it ends for me - feel free to insult me more if you'd like, if it'll make you feel better. I don't mind, really. But trying to show you that legislation won't work is pointless, because you're too damned scared to listen.
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It's not about legislating away fear. It's about punishing severely those who attempt to instill fear through terror.
Get the fuck over yourself, get off your fucking high horse, and grow the fuck up.
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Oh, C'mon.
Remember, "You can always use them as a bad example!"
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Although there are some very nice Libertarians out there. :) Individually.
As a political party, I find them more or less incomprehensible. You can't use what you can't comprehend, usually. :)