OK, now where's my flying car?

[unixronin]

Also on C|Net:  Honda officially launched the world's first production fuel-cell car on Sunday.  The Honda FCX Clarity delivers a combined-cycle driving range of about 72 miles per kilogram of hydrogen, which Honda says is equivalent to 74mpg in a gasoline-fueled car.  The car has a 280-mile range, implying it can hold about four kilos of hydrogen.

The Clarity will be offered for lease in three California cities (Costa Mesa, Santa Monica, and Torrance) for about $600 a month, starting in July./p>

Of course, hydrogen cars are not going to be widely driven anytime soon.  Honda estimates it will lease only about 200 FCX Clarity vehicles over the next three years.  In order to qualify for the lease program, would-be owners will have to meet a set of criteria that includes living within range of a hydrogen filling station, according to Honda.  As part of the lease, Honda will provide any necessary service or maintenance on the vehicle.

The biggest obstacle in mass market appeal of hydrogen-powered vehicles vs. gas-electric hybrids is where owners could fill up their cars.  While the U.S. Department of Energy has been a proponent of hydrogen fuel as an alternative energy for cars, there are currently few hydrogen-fuel filling stations the U.S.

Assuming you manage to qualify in the first place, good luck finding a place to fill it up away from home.

(See also this article on the hydrogen energy chain.)

Comments

[smandal.livejournal.com]

The way to solve the chicken-egg problem is to make an egg, and hope the chicken that emerges can lay a better egg.

Honda is taking a leap here -- good for them, and hopefully good for us.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Oh, sure. I'm just saying it's not going to be an instant panacea.

[house-pundit.livejournal.com]

Any solution in which the primary input for vehicle fuel can come from nuclear power plants is a step away from oil. It's just a question of which fuel can be made and used most cost-effectively from the energy of the nuke plant.

In this case, the most cost-effective solution that is completely isolated from petroleum and doesn't involve burning food, whatever that is, is a solution that's even worth government subsidies.

I say this as someone who firmly believes in minarchy. My rationale is that independence from petroleum is a vital national security/national defense interest. This--securing that type of vital interest--is one of the core functions of a successful, functional, viable minarchy. Hence it is a proper use for compulsory tax monies.

Besides which, give the engineers practice at it and the efficiency will go up.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Any solution in which the primary input for vehicle fuel can come from nuclear power plants is a step away from oil.

While that's inarguably true, the lead time on new nuclear plants is very long, and there's always the ever-present NIMBY problem. Everybody wants cheap power, but nobody wants it generated in their town.

In this case, the most cost-effective solution that is completely isolated from petroleum and doesn't involve burning food, whatever that is, is a solution that's even worth government subsidies.

I can agree with that too. Just as long as it doesn't mean the birth of yet another bloated, undead Federal bureaucracy. I'm with you on the reasoning, too. (For the same reason, I believe we should be doing everything we can to support Changing World Technologies and get more thermal depolymerization plants built. They can't end our dependence on oil, but they can end our dependence on IMPORTED oil, without any new oil drilling, and do it fast enough — on a global economic timescale — to leave the Saudis et al wondering where the rug went.)

[novel-tharkun.livejournal.com]

I'd remind people the enormous subsidies already given to IC engines and other current technologies... but no one seems to need reminding.

About the only thing I can add is H2 fuel cells do look to have a possible advantage as closed-cycle chemical storage as efficient time-delay from off-peak wind generation, area shifted solar, etc. The costs & difficulties of working with H2 as well as many other technical hurdles remain.

[ithildae.livejournal.com]

Last I heard, virtually all our hydrogen came from liquefied natural gas. We keep talking about technologies to liberate hydrogen from water, but I have yet to hear of one in commercial use.

I am still holding out hope for the Tesla Motors sedan. The roadster looks wonderful, but with all the SUV's on the road up here, small cars just are not safe to drive (If only because you cannot see what is happening in traffic.)

I am not certain that I am ready to back a full hydrogen energy cycle. There seem to be too many problems with direct hydrogen supply that still need to be solved. Here is hoping for some positive breakthroughs.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

Deriving hydrogen from natural gas would seem a peculiarly boneheaded way of doing it compared to simple electrolysis of water.

[ithildae.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I hear you. But LNG costs relatively little to strip the hydrogen out of, whereas water costs a comparatively large amount in energy to bust down. Hence, our commercial hydrogen comes from LNG. One of the reasons I am not jumping on the hydrogen economy bandwagon.

[smandal.livejournal.com]

Natural gas reformers are not a bad stop-gap. Even if the electricity comes from coal, the CO2 at the wheel is far less than internal combustion.

The ideal of course would be if people could convert water in their homes, rather than natural gas -- cut out the hydrogen station middleman (with the attendant transportation difficulties).

[ithildae.livejournal.com]

I really don't want the 5,000 to 10,000 PSI containers in my home. That is a much more active danger than a simple 220V AC connection for power. Hydrogen also tends to damage line materials. Raw hydrogen in the home is not a fun thing to contemplate.

[smandal.livejournal.com]

Hydrogen requires three times the concentration in vapor of hydrocarbon fuels to ignite, and because it is so light it evaporates ten times faster than gasoline. (source (http://www.plugpower.com/technology/Hydrogen%20Brochure.pdf), PDF) Also, why would you keep it pressured, when you can keep it cryogenic?

Seems safer on the whole than having gas tanks around.

[ithildae.livejournal.com]

What the Brochure does not address is how hydrogen tends to make materials that it comes into contact with brittle. They also suggest a storage pressure of 2,400 psi, less than half of what the new Honda requires. I am concerned with the high pressure aspect of storage. (I saw a dropped size 'E' oxygen tank go through a reinforced concrete wall.) Cryogenic poses some problems, but they can be overcome, My concern would be the energy to drop the temperature within the home. (20 Kelvin is pretty cold!)

I do know that home battery systems are required to be vented due to the release of small quantities of hydrogen during charge cycles. That does not fill me with warm fuzzies.

I am not opposed to a hydrogen economy and infrastructure. I do think that there are too many unsolved issues to make it a reality in the next decade. Foremost, we need an economical, commercial method to generate the stuff other than from natural gas.

[argonel.livejournal.com]

The many issues with direct hydrogen keep me skeptical about the actual utility. I think the time and effort would be better spent looking for alternate methaods of utilizing gasoline or liquified propane (LP gas) as energy sources. They are already much more readily available and people have a firmer grasp on how they need to be handled. They also have much higher energy density than compressed H2 gas. I think the greatest potential is the possibility of a practical hydrocarbon fuel cell (methanol, propane, ethane, acetylene, gasoline). These are all technically hydrogen fueled, but use carbon to get the molecular size up high enough that they are easy to work with.

The biggest problems I see with using compressed H2 gas as a vehicle fuel are the leak rate, low energy density, and to a lesser extent hydrogen embrittlement. The hydrogen embrittlement problem can be fixed/ worked around by not useing hardened components anywhere that there is contact with hydrogen. This includes not using grade 8 bolts to hold the engine together.

[unixronin.livejournal.com]

There is at least one company working on fuel cells that can be fed direct hydrocarbons, and also at least one company that is working on an in-car reformer that produces hydrogen from liquid hydrocarbons. (Presumably hydrocarbon plus oxygen in, hydrogen plus carbon dioxide out.) I'm not clear on the details or status of either.

[novel-tharkun.livejournal.com]

I seem to remember many working on this. Or are you referring to one doing so for PEM or other likely portable strategy? Most that I recall reading about that either use cracking technology from hydrocarbon chains or direct-feed are working on solid oxide or similar.

[ithildae.livejournal.com]

There was a researcher in CA that recently (12 - 15 mo) that came up with a process for commercial production of methanol. That shows lots of promise.